Battlezone 1

MDM Mortar bug can't be fixed within the code. Something has to be done with ODF's.

Mortar is stronger than MDM. In Armory, Mortar costs 2, MDM 1 scrap. So, except making Grizzly too strong with giving him Mortar instead of MDM we will also lose 1 weapon in Armory.

I suggest making of new weapon, Light Mortar, which will cost 1 scrap and be slightly weaker than (regular) Mortar.

MDM is good, MDM is stock.

Try to fix the code for it first?

I think you should just leave the MDM, or rewrite the code, and yeah, I agree with BD, try fix it first

Cerberus is kinda new here, but you BD, you should know better.

If reaper (the guy with the code) and Tug (a programmer) haven't found a way to fix MDM bug, I (not a programmer, without the code) can't fix it either.

Only solution is ODF adjustement or, like they did in BzE, replacing of MDM with (regular) Mortar.

Leaving MDM as it is, is not an option because bug it creates is huge. Main purpose of 1.5 patch is to fix bugs and MDM is 1 of them.

MDM (1 scrap) and Mortar (2 scrap) have the same strength. Main difference is in detonation which unfotunately creates the bug. Time in firing 2 Mortars is about the same as time of firing and detonating of 1 MDM, so the best idea I got so far is LSDM (longer shot deley mortar) Mortar which will have 2x longer shot delay than regular Mortar. Everything else will be the same as it was for MDM.

sorry about that, did not know the bug was that big

Mortar is only slightly stronger than MDM unless I'm missing something.

Direct hits do exact same damage.

(unless net code makes them stronger?)

6 shots to kill a Pak in Campaign on HARD with either MDM or Mortar

If the Mortar explosions do more damage than MDM explosions, then make the ammoCost the same as MDM, and decrease the damage a little.

The "Light Mortar" is a fairly interesting idea.

Then we can have 4 mortars:

Mortar Name (Cost)

1 Light Mortar (1)
2 Mortar (2)
3 Splinter (2)
4 Popgun (3)

Perhaps the Light Mortar can be stock in Grizzly and Tusker.

EDIT: I think Light Mortar is a good idea, I assume that reaper can simply add "Light Mortar" or "Mini Mortar" to the sprite table. Or better yet, give us the tools to edit sprite tables.

The Light Mortar (whatever you want to call it) should do the same damage as MDM for both direct hits and explosions. Its ammoCost and shotDelay should be the same too. I think that is best.

I looked at grenade.odf (Mortar) and bouncebm.odf (MDM) and it appears they have the same damage, the same explosions, etc.

grenade.odf (Mortar)


bouncebm.odf (MDM)


The only thing that appears different is ammoCost.

According to ODFs, they do the same damage. What am I missing?

EDIT 2: Having a light mortar is pointless if MDM and Mortar do the same damage.

Either:

1. I am missing something.

or

2. Mortar does not make Grizzly/Tusker "too strong".

Grizzly was only weak before because MDM was bugged. Replacing with mortar doesn't make Grizzly "too strong", it simply eliminates MDM bug, allowing the Grizzly to have the intended strength.

Ah, I either missed this part of your post or you edited.

I would like to point out that you can fire MDM just as fast as regular Mortar if you hold CTRL.

So I do not see the problem in replacing MDM with Mortar. "Light Mortar" just doesn't sound like stock BZ to me. Replacing MDM with Mortar isn't stock either, but it's an exception since we are working around a bug. It's something that must be done to stop the problem of MDM bug.

(I know that BZ 1.5 is on hold, but this isn't a code change. Let discussion continue! )

Here's an idea. I made "MDM" stand for "More Delay Mortar"

But I didn't double the shot delay, I changed it from 2 to 3.

I think 4 seconds is too long and 2 seconds too short, so 3 is the medium.

Its ammoCost is the same as Manual Detonation Mortar, but shotDelay in gmdmgun.odf is changed from 2 to 3.

Splinter's shotDelay is 3, so it kind of matches another mortar weapon.

Actually it would be cool if we replaced MDM with a Long Delay Mortar AND added a Light Mortar IMO

The long delay mortar is the "light mortar" we speak of.

He initially thought Mortar did more damage than MDM, but that is not the case.

If I could edit sprite tables and the names*.map files, I could add/replace BZ's valid strings, but alas I cannot.

I can hex-edit sprite tables and replace "MDM Mortar" string with "LSD Mortar" and change it to "LSD Mortar" in the ODF, but it still shows up as "MDM Mortar" in-game, so it's obviously the names*.map files that I would need to edit, but there's no ASCII text in those files. In hex values there's only 00 and FF.

If you were referring to me... I never though that. I just said Mortar is stronger. I wasn't talking about (same) damage they do, I was talking generally. After all, Mortar costs 2 scrap, MDM 1.

MDM bug isn't the only reason why we prefer Mortar in the games and that's why I think Grizzly would be too strong with Mortar, especially vs Czar (without any mortar). Required detonation doesn't make MDM 2x weaker than Mortar, but weaker it is.

LM, LSDM... even though I made few mortars for testing, I don't like the idea of me or anyone else bringing new weapons into stock game.

Not that it matters, but I'm still lost on this subject...

We aren't adding a new weapon, we're changing a broken weapon to a non-broken weapon.

I would use MDM in strat, except for MDM bug, which renders it useless.

If MDM must be removed, then have Grizzly be like Czar with no mortar weapon?

Sure beats dealing with MDM bug.


Actually, for me it IS.

If MDM wasn't bugged, I'd be using it.

Could hold CTRL and lay 5 of them in same place, then release CTRL and then click to detonate them.

It'd be the ultimate spawning weapon in DM. Like a proximity mine that is detonated manually, and does less damage.

MDM is bugged, we shouldn't use it. If Grizzly and Tusker are left with empty mortar hardpoint, that's fine with me, because it will stop the MDM bug by preventing its use without adding a new non-stock mortar weapon.

We'd still be forced to upgrade mortar in strat, but we won't have MDM to begin with.

I remember playing Jazz aka T-34. He played from 2 locations. When he played at home the games were MDM bugged. When he played at work there was no MDM bug.. I believe he had cable at work, dsl at home. Maybe have a chat with him to verify that, or do some cable vs cable, dsl vs cable testing.
Just asking myself if the bug could be a connectivity issue, or at least happens more often in cable vs dsl.

I seem to be the only one who likes it being removed (or fixed of course , but i dont think thats realistic having in mind who has to co operate to achieve that)

Since mdm is useless now and will screw up the entire game, it doesnt add to the strength of the grizzly tank. Removing it won't damage the tanks power as it is a very strong tank without it. Ask Jester, he can tell. In strat you can get the mortar anyway, so nobody would miss it as long as it isnt fixed. Too bad.., i always liked that detonator.