Battlezone 1

In Bz 1.4 with 60FPS you need 15 seconds and 25 dual SP Stabbers shots to destroy opponent's recycler (18 seconds and 30 shots for your own).

Knowing that Grizzly has 50 and Czar 62 dual SP Stabbers shots, what you think how many shots should be needed to destroy a rec? Should that be changed at all?

I never liked the idea that single tank can wipe out both recycler and factory without reloading. I don't think that's a strat, it is a DM. But on the other hand, it shouldn't be impossible to destroy rec with single tank because in that case nobody would guard it, and that's also not strat.

I vote for a "slight" change - 40 dual SP Stabbers shots.

I think the idea for the recyclers low health was this. Imagine that you'd killed his units, got passed the gun towers and defeated those turrets. Now you've got 30 sp-stabber shots left, and you're the last unit. Would you like to have to run back to base and pick up some more ammo just to run back and finish the job?

I think it's fine at the moment. If you made it stronger, like 40 sp-stabber shots, then you'd have to run back to base to re-load even if you only shot 10 times, likely the opponent won't have enough time to make defenses, and it'd just be a tedious run and wouldn't really improve strat at all.

The recycler is a great unit, it's the "big one" to the operation. If everything else dies you can still make your way back with it. But you need to protect it, it hasn't got the health to last up to even a single tank. Make it stronger, and there's no need to defend at all.

This is one of the few things I think should stay the same in BzE.

You shouldn't be able to be a one man army in strat because then you don't need the rest of the strat vehicles and buildings, it's just another dm.

I realize now that 40 shots I was suggesting in my first post would be too big change. In Bz I lose my recycler only to tweakers with high FPS, because they need only 10 seconds to do it (Sir Stratking), not 15 like they should. I didn't calculate that in Bz 1.5 all will have the same speed (equal to 60FPS in BZ). What I actually wanted was much more than Stratking's 10 seconds. Therefore, 20 seconds and 33 shots like already is in BzE 1.0 seems reasonable to me and I think it will improve strat, because lately for some (tweaked) guys strat became DM with recycler.

The recycler's strength is not, and should not be it's hull. It's relatively weak hull forces the player to worry about defences all the time (especially when not "home"), which is a fun part of the gameplay. A few basic defences can protect it from lone recycler-rushers. A recycler on the move, without protection, is a sitting duck and chanceless when it meets one well armed tank. that makes moving it risky, and risk means extra adrenalin input, which means extra fun.

The only problem with it's weakness is during the first 1 or 2 minutes of the game. An opponent who quickly builds armory and second sp can surprize you when you're just building that silo. You rush back home, but you arrive a few seconds too late, the recycler is gone. This is of course when you don't expect a rush attack and took a risk by going too far away. Somehow when that happens, it's about seconds mostly. With some more seconds needed to kill the recycler, its chances to survive the first few minutes are a bit more fair. But this is only about the first couple of minutes. When the defences are there, the recycler is not an easy target anymore.

So what i like to see is a "weak" recycler that requires protection to survive against a bad ass tank, but just strong enough to give rushers a harder time killing it in the first minute. It shouldn't be impossible to rush a recycler, just a bit more difficult. It seems that the recycler i vote for is in BZE 1.0 already..!

one of the main reasons i like bz is because u can use a 1 man army to kill anything u want, but reach ur limitations to some degree depending on ur dm skill. bz2 u cant kill anything alone and need like 50 tanks to kill a base, ur tank is just 1 of them and that takes away the thing that makes bz so good which is the fps control of ur tank. why be able to control ur tank so well if its not going to make you any stronger than a AI tank? then bz might as well be a view from above plain strat. i think relying on other units too much is just a step towards the gayness of bz2. bz is supposed to be dm and strat combined. not one or the other

What about making an option in the factory where you can make a recycler, but make it where it cost somewhere around 40-60 scrap and takes 20-30 seconds to build and a few pilots extra? Move the tug option to the recycler. This way if you have a few things built up like silos and such you can still continue on, making it to where the 1 man army thing would take alot more.

Actually I'm going to have to agree with demo on this one. It would be nice to have the ability to make a new recyc, especially if you play like I do and get yours blown up quickly when playing strat veterans.

Let's face it. The Recycler is helpful, but not 100% necessary. You can win without it. It is a major pain, but it can be done. Leave it as is, makes it more interesting in case someone does lose it.

I have won a few strat games even though I lost my recycler yes. It does make it interesting, but that is why I say make it cost so much in order for it to be done. Most guys that rush do it in the first few mins, so If you had a little built up which most should have a silo and a factory after a few mins. This would make the typical recycler rusher stray away from his usual habit, and concentrate more on the strat aspect of controling units instead of the 1 man army charge in tactic, or pilot jumping in,landing (if his ship was destroyed) into the recycler causing its distruction. I just think if you add that option it would make for longer more technical games which in my opinion is what strat is about.

Since I started my BZ days with Battlezone 2, this is something I don't really know. I personally don't like the idea of rushing a base because some players don't know how to make a proper base within 2 minutes. (like me, I can't do it worth crap to keep my stuff alive) The way I think of it is that if Strategy is what your going for, then the 'commanders' primary role is to protect the base and continue building defenses, while making offensive units to send off attacking. The idea of being able to kill a recycler so easily is rather ridiculous IMO. If it is so easy, then it's not a strat to begin with. Hell, I wouldn't even call it a DM either because there is hardly a match to the death in what's suppose to be a strategy game.

Again, I'm a veteran of BZ2, not BZ1. So, my views are vastly different than others here. Personally speaking, I like the idea of sending off platoons of tanks, scouts, rocket tanks, etc... than being a one-man army. (though, the games I played in, you could be a one-man army, however, there were strict rules that we can't destroy the recycler for an hour or so, but the opponents offensive was tough, so it works out in the end)

Actually an idea I had was make it so that the MUF can build a replacement recycler if you lose your main. It would be just like the trainer you get in NSDF mission two. You can make scavs, ammo, health, turrets, maybe scouts, but you can't build MUF's, Armories, or Constructors. If you do that, you can also add the condition that you have lost your recycler, so you don't have people running around with trainers in the beginning. Also you should make the scrap cost obscene, like 30 or so, so that you only get it if you really work at it. Production time should also be long as hell. But it would be interesting. You can replace the Tug in the MUF for this builder. Just a thought.

Exactly. I can't make a trainer out of serious, competitive strat. 1.5 won't be like BzE, it will have only major bug fixes and few needed changes. I don't want to give a single reason for anyone not to install it. Recycler coming out of factory would be one. Even stronger recycler would be unacceptable to some.

Fortunately, Bz 1.5 will get few improvements, which make this poll unnecessary. For some you heard, for some you haven't:

1. much harder to hack
2. everybody's FPS at 60
3. own units can't shoot own recycler
4. recycler has shield which prevents diving in
5. splinter power reduced
6. "smarter" AI*
*more about that later

Leave it as is.

This is (mostly) stock BZ + Fixes we're talking about, right?

darn... oh well, it was just a thought